[C.Anderson]

Well, during my forced absence from the forge, I spent a little time drawing up user type blades to make once I got back. I'd posted them up on another forum where there is a lot of interest in that type blades...and was going to post the finished product up here for you guys to critique for me.

However...it's coming along so well...my excitement has got the better of me lol, and I'm posting now. I figure the more experienced of you may have some words of wisdom for me regarding my process. This is only my fifth blade overall...third non Japanese style (and under 12").

Anyway...here's some pictures of where I started:


These are my original drawings. I've decided to start with #3, as it was very popular on the other forum, and the broad, sweeping line of the spine really appeals to me.


I started with a 12" x 1 1/2" x 1/4" piece of 1075/1080 from Admiral Steel. The length is far more than I needed of course, but I need to gauge how much steel each blade will require, and by starting with an overlong piece, I can measure the remainder to see what I used. Additionally...the longer piece was easier to draw out to my desired 1" wide dimension (yeah...I didn't have the right size steel on hand =p).


Here we go after about an hour and a half of drawing out. I'm kind of glad I had to do this, since I was very out of practice and it helped me get used to controlling the hammer again, as well as used to my new workspace. Out of the forge, hammer down the width, flatten the thickness on one side, flatten the thickness on the other, straighten, back in the forge. Rinse/repeat...over and over and over....




All drawn out. Roughly 15" x 1" x 5/16". If things work out this might just make 3 of these blades...(turned out...they did work out =D).


Beginning to rough out the butt.


Here I'm starting to forge out the main grip area.


Here I have the main grip forged out, and have forged my precurve into the spine. I anticipated that this would likely straighten a little as I tried to work the finger choil area...so I made the curve a bit more aggressive than my final intention.


This is as far as I got the first night. That finger choil is a PAIN IN THE...to forge in. Every time I screwed it up...an image of grinding it in flashed through my brain. That defeats the purpose of using these little knives for forging practice though...so I just stuck it out. As you can see I didn't stick it out very far =D. Since then a friend explained a good way to make a bottom fuller for my post anvil...which should help me out a TON in the future.

Anyway, there we have it. This was the first day's work. More to come in the next post =D.

Cris

[C.Anderson]

Day 2...here's the pictures:


First thing I did was cut the blade off of the handle/billet. Cutting it at an angle saved me forge work on the blade.


Here's what was left over. 12" long, with a nice angled cut to begin the next blade with. I should be able to get two more out of this piece easily. That tells me that 15" of 1"x5/16" steel (I could use 1/4" just as easily) will make me three of these knives. Good news =D.





And there's the roughed out blade. A bit more forge time smoothing the flats, and giving the overal blade more natural transition from rear to front, and it was ready for file work.

Cris

[C.Anderson]

A few more pictures of the work as I progressed:


Roughed profile. Can you tell I said 'forget forging the choil'? There's a very small amount of grinder work left here, and a bit more forging to get the spine profile right. I couldn't believe I nailed the amount of material to chop off when I cut the blade loose =D.









As I said...a slight bit of profiling with the grinder, then into the forge to fix the spine...then back out and there we have it. NOW the real work began /sigh:


First...I draw file the spine. You can see one spot where there is a dip along the line of the spine. Normally, I'd remove that, but since the blade is going to be rounded (no sharp edges except the...edge lol), and it's a very small dip...I'm leaving it until later. Removing it now would require altering the arc of the spine.


Same thing goes for the blade...and for the same dual purpose.


Working the butt. See that little 'dent' in the top right? Yeah...that took FOREVER to remove =/ (and it still didn't go all the way away). Caused me a blister too lol.


Finished the bottom to match the spine. Including that bleepin' choil lol.








The reason for ALL the hard work. Needless to say I'm pretty happy...both with the end result, and with the fact that I got it SO close with the hammer. Additionally, I'm THOROUGHLY pleased with my forge finish on the flats. MUCH smoother than I've ever done before!

At this point, I put the blade in vinegar to soak a while...and had dinner lol.

Cris

[C.Anderson]

These pictures are of the remainder of the work I did today.

I had about 8hrs in it today. Add about 6hrs yesterday (not counting the drawing out of the steel yesterday and the day before), and I've got 15hrs in so far. I'll have at least two more hours of filing tomorrow just to get hammer marks out (yeah...looked smooth eh? NOT.), give it a couple more hours prepping for heat treat (rounding all the sharp edges, taking the grit up to smooth...etc)...and that puts me at around 20hrs in a finished blade blank. Rough estimate of another 8hrs for heat treat, temper, and rough finishing the blade to the point that it has an edge. Who knows how many hours for polish, etching, and wrap...but lets guess somewhere around 8, and that puts me at 36hrs.

What would you guys charge for a blade like this? I plan on finishing it in a braided leather wrap like this:



And an oiled, dark etched...somewhat flat blade finish (ferric chloride etch) that will highlight the hamon yet still subdue the blade. I know the market is kind of wierd...but at $200, that's like $5.56 an hour lol...less materials. Your opinions on that will be very helpful.

Anyhow...onto the pictures:


This is the side with the majority of work left. Seemed pretty smooth, and I guess it was...for a hammer finish lol. Not having any kind of power sander/belt grinder lol...sucks =p.


This side is basically done...as far as filing the flats goes.




Filing vertically sucks too lol. I need to setup another blade fixture.


Not too bad if I do say so myself! I did make some changes from the original drawing...mostly to the width of the grip. My hands aren't huge, and it's a comfortable fit for me. Any narrower and it would still be usable by me...but anyone with larger hands would be out. This way...the knife would be usable by the majority of people.

So there we are. I really am very happy about it to be honest. It's coming along nicely with no real mistakes that I am aware of. As I said, I've made five knives/swords total, and this one has by far come off with the least amount of hitches lol =D.

Cris

[Dan Scott]

That looks great. I think it will come out really nicely with the braid and the hamon. As for the finger choil: what I do on small knives is use the cross pein directly on the choil area and just try to keep the spine as flat as I can on the anvil. This puts the finger choil in roughly (it still needs a bit of smoothing out by file after this) but creates a sort of upset where the choil is (the upset is on the flats of the handle). I just take the file to that upset, as opposed to filing in the choil itself, and take it down until the handle is flat again. That has been working a lot faster for me than grinding it in, which I used to do for a long time.
Anyway, can't wait to see this one finished!

-Dan

[C.Anderson]

Dan Scott, on 29 July 2010 - 07:39 AM, said:

That looks great. I think it will come out really nicely with the braid and the hamon. As for the finger choil: what I do on small knives is use the cross pein directly on the choil area and just try to keep the spine as flat as I can on the anvil. This puts the finger choil in roughly (it still needs a bit of smoothing out by file after this) but creates a sort of upset where the choil is (the upset is on the flats of the handle). I just take the file to that upset, as opposed to filing in the choil itself, and take it down until the handle is flat again. That has been working a lot faster for me than grinding it in, which I used to do for a long time.
Anyway, can't wait to see this one finished!

-Dan

Great advice =D, and thanks for the compliment!

My cross pein needs reshaped badly I think...it's very angular. What little choil I did forge in was forged partially how you described, and partially on a rounded corner of my straightening anvil. I'm not sure what I was doing wrong but it wasn't happening....and if I'd kept it up I'd have ruined the blade position relative to the grip.

A friend of mine suggested taking a concrete stake (the kind you buy at Home Depot for forms), and bending it in a tight fitting U over my post anvil. This could then be used as a bottom fuller that wouldn't bounce around with hammer blows, as it would be holding itself on with spring pressure. Next one I do I'll probably try that.

Cris

[C.Anderson]

So...the blade is basically finished before heat treat. I am going to go over the entire thing with paper until it's smooth...refine my grip bevels (you'll see in the pictures below), and just generally make sure there's nowhere a stress riser can cause a crack during heat treat...which will be this evening =D.

I'll let the pictures speak for themselves:






With all the sharp edges gone...this thing is an incredibly comfortable fit. It could be used easily with no wrap whatsoever...


Rounded spine work...I plan on filing thin grooves where the thumb rest will go. This blade also fits a reverse grip incredibly well...so I'll file a thumb rest on the butt also. More of a design feature than anything that will likely be used. I was also considering filing similar lines into the butt. A cool idea might be to remove the clay around those areas...so a hardening line shows in the etch. Not sure though...I'll probably not bother.


Beveled lower grip. I was originally going to round it like the spine...but it seemed like it would be too plain. The bevels draw attention to the lines of the knife...while taking nothing away from the blade. I think leaving it's the right choice.

Anyhow, there we go! Off to take the wife to work...then it's sand, sand, sand...and more sand!

Cris

[Hutton]

i actually love it
its brilliant
good job

[C.Anderson]

Hutton, on 29 July 2010 - 01:55 PM, said:

i actually love it
its brilliant
good job

Thanks!!

[Noah M Legel]

That looks awesome, Cris, and definitely your style!

[C.Anderson]

Noah M Legel, on 29 July 2010 - 09:26 PM, said:

That looks awesome, Cris, and definitely your style!

Thanks Noah =D.

The blade's soaking in the forge right now...slowly gaining heat for the heat treat.

I've been meaning to get ahold of you anyhow about your leather work =D. I've got some things in mind that nice leather accessories would go very nicely with. I'll get a PM to you sometime tonight.

Cris

[C.Anderson]

Woohoo =D.

Brought to critical (SO MUCH EASIER IN A GAS FORGE!!), held for a minute to make sure everything was soaked...then into 125F brine for 4 seconds...out for 4, in for 4 more...then out to check for straight. No warpage whatsoever...and a file won't touch it. It's in the oven right now at 375F tempering =D.

SO nice to finally be working in the forge again!

Cris

This post has been edited by C.Anderson: 29 July 2010 - 11:49 PM

[C.Anderson]

Well, as I said...I normalized the blade three times and did the heat treat yesterday. The results seemed to be great. The blade is hard on both sides...no cracks...all good right? Well...I sanded off the gunk...and etched it with vinegar. Nothing. So I sanded some more. There was a minimal hint of random lines. Sooo I sanded it down for about 30 minutes with 100 grit paper, then hit it with ferric chloride. It was a mess of random lines...with a vague hint of my clay layout. I cleaned it and dumped it in vinegar overnight.

I'm going to normalize it again and reharden it.



Clay layout. I wanted a sort of random sweep to the rear of the blade. Next time around I'll do as I do on swords...and draw the pattern on the blade, then build the clay to mimic it.



Pictures this morning...this confuses me. The heat on the blade was VERY even. The entire edge and spine were both non-magnetic. The entry into the quench was dead straight. I guess it is probably due to inconsistencies in the clay, and one side cooling more quickly somehow. It still happily skates even a sharp file (with a very glassy sound)...on either side. /shrug


Cool picture of the blade cooling in the forge during normalization =D.

Well, time for something to eat...then off to normalize and do it all again!

Cris

[C.Anderson]

The new heat treat is done...with similar mixed results:





120 grit lengthwise polish...no sign of a hamon. Here's two shots after a couple baths in 4:1 water/ferric chloride:





I'll be very honest and say I'm unsure precisely what these mean. The second picture looks promising. The first one...not so much.

The blade seems quite hard.

So...first let me say I know that the hamon may not always etch out right off the bat. Often you have to break through a layer of decarb. Thing is...I don't know how much decarb is reasonable to expect. I've etched and sanded this thing probably five or six times this time around. I would think that would be enough. I also know that one side might decarb less or more than the other.

I just don't want to break down the blade to an edge...and not be able to redo the heat treat if it's not right. Sooo...I took a fine general single cut file to the blade...making a light pass over the entire thing...being sure to cut away any and all evidence of the previous etch. 20 minutes sanding out the majority of the scratches with 120 grit, and this is what I got:


Better....


And a close up. The soft steel dips a little closer to the edge than I like...which makes me think my heat was marginal, though I verified it carefully before quenching. Overall...I can live with this though.


Now...what on earth are those bright patches?? Looking at it in dim light...it looks almost like the habuchi drops down and touches the edge where my ashi were.


Close up. The improvement is almost enough to convince me to break the edge down to sharp and see if it all goes away. Crappy gamble if it doesn't though lol.

Soooo, there we have it. I have my belt sander...and it would be a very short thing time wise to bring the blade to sharp. But I think what's got to happen (and it sucks because I liked the rolling way this pattern turned out)...is I'm going to heat treat again tomorrow...and be sure to test the spine for non-magnetic, rather than just the edge.

I'm just not sure though. Guess we'll see what tomorrow brings =D.

Cris

[C.Anderson]

Woohoo =D.

I bit the bullet and broke the edge down to sharp. The pattern is not 100% what I wanted...but it is there, not as close to the edge as it appeared, and basically even on both sides.

Whew!!

Here's a couple pictures. Not the best...but you can see the color difference for sure:





And this was the side I was worried about:





Soooo...now I can go about finishing the knife. As it sits, it's relatively sharp. The tip is a razor as/is. Now I just need to get some copper/steel mokume going...and decide what I'm doing for the wrap...and it'll be done!

Cris

[jake cleland]

nice wee knife. have you tried rubbing outthe oxides of the etch - the hamon can often look muddy if you dont, and you may find that you have a lot more activity to bring out. and i gotta ask - if you have a belt sander, why spend all that time hand filing/sanding etc - if you're planning on making simple knives and turning a profit, you should use all the time savers you can get your hands on.

[C.Anderson]

jake cleland, on 31 July 2010 - 07:45 PM, said:

nice wee knife. have you tried rubbing outthe oxides of the etch - the hamon can often look muddy if you dont, and you may find that you have a lot more activity to bring out. and i gotta ask - if you have a belt sander, why spend all that time hand filing/sanding etc - if you're planning on making simple knives and turning a profit, you should use all the time savers you can get your hands on.

Thanks Jake =D.

I'm actually debating on how to go about finishing this blade. I have an idea in my head for all dark steel, similar to how a carbon steel kitchen knife patinas over time. Kinda like this:



To that I'll add about 2" or so of a wrap in the center of the grip, out of heavily oiled (partially to darken it) flat leather braid:



And to finish it off I was thinking of a copper/steel mokume palm swell under the right hand side of the wrap...perhaps 3" long...something out of material like this (picture courtesy Ariel Salaverria):



Once the copper patinas it should sort of tie in the whole thing I think.

Anyhow though...I may polish it out and do a very subtle etch with multiple rub downs to bring everything out. The only reason it was etched so harshly was just to make sure the hamon was there. It was totally invisible to my eyes in just steel =/. I really really like the look of the patina on that kitchen knife above though...and so may experiment with multiple etches and light rub downs until the oxides stay put.

As for the belt sander lol...it's a Harbor Freight 3"x21" pile of junk. It screams like a banshee, puts out craploads of heat...and blows belts off at me at random intervals. On top of that...it was packed away at my parents until today lol =D. I just disassembled a washing machine this week though...and picked up a 1/2 horsepower 1750rpm electric motor. A few 2" wide 80 durometer skateboard wheels and a home built frame...and maybe I'll have a bit better grinder I can use.

Thanks for the interest Jake!

Cris

This post has been edited by C.Anderson: 31 July 2010 - 09:08 PM

[B. Norris]

Cris,

Jake is right, you want to remove the oxides to get more activity - doing so after each etch cycle will really help, but you must get the blade CLEAN before going back into the etch. Also, I've had similar "muddy" etches from ferric that became contaminated with oil. The oil floats on the surface and coats the blade in a random fashion when it gets dunked. The parts coated with the oil etch at a different rate from the rest and makes the hamon look spotty. I have decide not to dunk the blade in the ferric anymore, to avoid this kind of contamination, and will use a cotton ball or something to bring the ferric to the blade.

How thick was the wash of clay you put down on the blade? The wash should be as thin as you can get it, too thick, especially if your clay is highly insulating like Satanite, and the parts that need to harden do not cool quickly enough. The result is that the hamon moves closer to the edge, but now we are getting into all kinds of variables such as the thickness of the edge at quench, et cetera.

Now that you have had a chance to use your workspace, how do you like it? Is the layout working well for you? Having a good layout just makes the work "flow" and a bad one does the opposite.

~Bruce~

[C.Anderson]

I think the hamon will be ok on this one...in the right light (post etch), I can see the full line of the habuchi with some interesting whirls and swirls...I just can't photograph it lol. This etch was just to be certain the edge hardened and gave me a pattern at all. I've since polished it all off with 120 grit, and the hamon is just barely visible in the naked steel. It won't be etched again until at least 400 grit...possibly 600 grit...just to see what's in there, and that will actually be polished off too. The final etching and experimentation will be somewhere post 1000 grit.

B. Norris, on 01 August 2010 - 09:37 AM, said:

Cris,

Jake is right, you want to remove the oxides to get more activity - doing so after each etch cycle will really help, but you must get the blade CLEAN before going back into the etch. Also, I've had similar "muddy" etches from ferric that became contaminated with oil. The oil floats on the surface and coats the blade in a random fashion when it gets dunked. The parts coated with the oil etch at a different rate from the rest and makes the hamon look spotty. I have decide not to dunk the blade in the ferric anymore, to avoid this kind of contamination, and will use a cotton ball or something to bring the ferric to the blade.

How thick was the wash of clay you put down on the blade? The wash should be as thin as you can get it, too thick, especially if your clay is highly insulating like Satanite, and the parts that need to harden do not cool quickly enough. The result is that the hamon moves closer to the edge, but now we are getting into all kinds of variables such as the thickness of the edge at quench, et cetera.

That's funny Bruce lol...when I use a cotton ball...I end up getting all kinds of nasty streaks in the etch. I thought a dip would be more 'even' lol! I'll have to try both again next time I etch it.

The clay was about 1/8" thick...perhaps slightly less. Unless you mean the initial coating...which would be measured in the thousandths. Basically I took a broad, soft paint brush...dipped it into almost liquified satanite...and then brushed a thin skim on the blade. Almost like painting watercolors. The only purpose of the thin wash is to eliminate any kind of scale formation.

B. Norris, on 01 August 2010 - 09:37 AM, said:

Now that you have had a chance to use your workspace, how do you like it? Is the layout working well for you? Having a good layout just makes the work "flow" and a bad one does the opposite.

~Bruce~

I'm loving it =D. I need a few things still...shelving, my tool boxes...etc. But the actual placement of the table, forge, and anvil are working well. Making this little knife felt very natural...which is a good thing!

Cris

[C.Anderson]

I couldn't resist...once I polished it all out at 120 grit I had to etch ONE more time just to see it all grey and pretty lol =D:









It's nowhere near done...I need to pick up 400, 600, and 800 grit papers...polish out those, then use the 1000, 1500, and 2000 grit I already have. I have an idea to use light etches in between grits so I can more easily see the scratches from the previous grit...so we'll be able to see it etched between every stage of polish.

Seeing this with an even 120 grit...post etch...makes me REALLY optimistic about the final look though for sure =D.

Cris